Never summon what you cannot banish? Opinions/ideas?

[Noctua]

^ cannot edit, that should read : I'm not going to then risk the operation being *incorrect.
Although I am sure what I'm saying is clear enough.

[Nemesis]

1. Here we disagree. Explained my view at it already. Whatever one wishes the final goal of the wish is the emotion of inner peace and joy.
What do you think, what's the final goal?

You're not wrong about this - most people's end goal is happiness. Where I disagree with you is that this is a psychological angle, not a spiritual, existential one. You can have a personal goal to be happy, but that doesn't mean that the ultimate, objective, universal purpose of existence is happiness.

Wait, how you define "spiritual"?
Spiritual is existential for me too, but defined as what lies in our true selves core.
So in this core lies the instinct for well being too.
That's why i consider the psychology so vital in the spiritual advancement, as it brings us closer to achieving that well being state.

And yes, i can agree that universe isn't about happiness and joy as it's final goal, because there are creatures created in there with no ability and purpose for achieving that happiness and joy in the most pure form (the love).
And they are not less worth than we or some species of demons.
We all are different, we all are neccessary, and there's no greater and less great.

That's the human tendency towards anthropomorphism. Fairies are also spirits, just as we are, but their psychological make-up differs a lot from ours. That becomes very obvious when you read the lore that directs you not to thank them because they'll take offence. I don't get your basis here.
If we accept that demons have the same psychology as us, then we also have to accept that they face similar problems as us and would benefit from therapy.

They are superb in that field and advanced (talking about some species of demons, not all of them).
It's a challenge to understand the starting point of their personal spiritual development, but as the really creative and abstract thinking capable entities, they should probably be aware of the easiest and the most smooth way of achieving this ultimate joy and inner peace - and that way is love.
They should be aware of this even more than human.

And how they achieve that goal they are aware of...
Unknown.

Also want to add: occult and no occult, rhp or lhp...
I am not very familiar with these definitions, as i have realized these are only sets of concepts made by human mind.
So it differs and everyone defines it differently.
And i have chosen my own concept, based at everything i have red and studied.
With no special intention to be shaped and defined like "lhp", "occult practitioner", "satanist", "christian", or whatever.

In my magical and spiritual work and approach i am more about using my intuition than definitions, forms and shapes.
My mind works like that.
I am listening my gut in everything.
What feels more "warm" to my deepest depth is what i go for.
From that reason it's sometimes even a challenge to me to define my views because i am more about feeling than analizing.
And yes, many people defines me as the New age practitioner, so maybe i am, but i don't really care for the definition as long as my methods and approaches work for me.

About your example of the cooking cake bases at recipy, you gave at the bottom as the responce to Hans...
From my point of view it cannot relate to abstract matters as the spiritual is.
Of course you don't need some sort of belief to do concrete action like that based at some well touchable recipy.
But when doing magic work, like more abstract process where your invisible energy is being employed to move something toward the manifestation... than the belief is the most powerful tool.
As the different individuals we have different mindsets and spiritual signatures/cores/energies, and we what works for one doesn't work for another.

[Nemesis]

Guys, sorry, i mixed something with the multi quote thing in the previous post...
Tried to edit but couldn't, not allowed.
Cult, i hope you will manage to see what's whose statement.

Sorry for the mess.

[Nemesis]

If you think 'destruction' is a negative, unevolved trait, then you're never going to grow. This really isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of experience. You cannot become something better without destroying the old first. This destruction can take your world and turn it upside down in the worst way possible, it can kill, it can maim, it can shatter everything you know. Destruction is another side to Creation and that duality is pure. Destruction isn't a lowly construct that takes us further away from spirit.
Hell, consideration of it is the same in most spiritual paths if you take a close enough look, that healthy reverence for or at least acknowledgment of death and destruction and its sacred necessity.

A divine/higher being carrying a destructive force is not consuming itself by that nature, because that force is inherent to its being, much like it's inherent to us to breathe.

If you believe that a 'constructive force' without a destructive force makes any sense for your growth, this is quite beyond me. I'm not out to crush your individual beliefs, but when they don't even make sense it comes across as though you don't have a decent grasp of *why* you believe in what you do or how that has functioned for you.


To me the destruction is neccessary part of the universe just as construction.

I accept it in myself as something i can learn from.
I see it as gift rather than the issue.
Yes, i consider this as my negativity, because it brings the struggle and pain in my life.
So i am about to find its roots, deal with it and channel it to something more constructive, or just gently release as some parts of it cannot serve me at all.
This process is familiar to many of us here and it's - of course - called the Shadow work.

For now i haven't bigger challenge with doing the shadow work at myself.
I am evolving fast because i have amazing spiritual guides - the demons who help me by giving me psychological strength to endure the meetings with my negativity (facing these) and also by guiding me toward meditation techniques and another spiritual methods which suits to my true self the most.

So maybe we misunderstood each other in the previous conversation...
English isn't my native and also i am more intuitive kind of person, so - like i told to Cult now - i find sometimes challengefull to find the best definitions of my inner feelings.

About being consumed by destruction force in oneself...
Here i was talking about the species of demons and all other species created on the way that they are mentally capable of realizing what's the most easy and most painless way to real inner peace and joy.
And real inner peace and joy, from my point of view, are surely not eternal war, vengeance seeking or hatred toward the other one who can punch you back.

Of course, i am not telling here that those entities who are created without the capability to realize that, are less worth than those who are.
We all are equally worth, i am repeating once again.
We all are equally worth, because we are created.
And nobody and nothing is created without the good reason.

[Cult]

Wait, how you define "spiritual"?
Spiritual is existential for me too, but defined as what lies in our true selves core.
So in this core lies the instinct for well being too.
That's why i consider the psychology so vital in the spiritual advancement, as it brings us closer to achieving that well being state.

I define spiritual as supernatural, otherworldly, metaphysical - all that.

From my point of view it cannot relate to abstract matters as the spiritual is.
Of course you don't need some sort of belief to do concrete action like that based at some well touchable recipy.
But when doing magic work, like more abstract process where your invisible energy is being employed to move something toward the manifestation... than the belief is the most powerful tool.
As the different individuals we have different mindsets and spiritual signatures/cores/energies, and we what works for one doesn't work for another.

If it's about results, it's not abstract. The success of your magic can be measured in tangible ways. It either works or it doesn't. You use ingredients when you bake a cake, and you also use ingredients when you do magic. The invisible, 'energetic' component is moved by power, not belief. If you haven't cultivated any kind of power, or if your spell lacks the necessary components to give it power, it's not going to work. Belief still doesn't matter - the method does.

[Nemesis]

If it's about results, it's not abstract. The success of your magic can be measured in tangible ways. It either works or it doesn't. You use ingredients when you bake a cake, and you also use ingredients when you do magic. The invisible, 'energetic' component is moved by power, not belief. If you haven't cultivated any kind of power, or if your spell lacks the necessary components to give it power, it's not going to work. Belief still doesn't matter - the method does.

So, based at your previous post where you gave the answer to Hans, you think that there is some universal recipy for successful spell just as for the delicious cake or?
If so...
Why then the different approaches to magic and different methods for the same kind of spell exist?
And all of these work for its followers?

What is the secret key for successful spell then?

Isn't it the unique-ness and originality of the each one of us?
Seeking the recipy that suits to us the best, our own recipy?

And what's the belief in all that?
It's some kind of our own "credential" of what we are and where our strong sides are, when speaking in the terms of magic.

What's the spell method without a belief?
In my opinion, nothing, empty shell, because that belief/credential about what we can forms the spell method, right one for us as an individual.

Belief creates the thought, thought creates the emotion, the emotion leads to action, action creates the perfect spell for us, and then only focus is needed for its success.

We cannot have the method without the belief/credential because methods aren't built from the nothingness.
Somebody had to believe that its elements and relations among them are going to lead to the successful spell.

[Cult]

So, based at your previous post where you gave the answer to Hans, you think that there is some universal recipy for successful spell just as for the delicious cake or?
If so...
Why then the different approaches to magic and different methods for the same kind of spell exist?
And all of these work for its followers?

No, there isn't only one approach that can make a spell work. There are many approaches that are effective, but that doesn't mean that every approach is effective.

What is the secret key for successful spell then?

Isn't it the unique-ness and originality of the each one of us?
Seeking the recipy that suits to us the best, our own recipy?

The key to a successful spell is a successful method. If it works, it's a successful method. If it only works if you believe, it can be improved.

Belief creates the thought, thought creates the emotion, the emotion leads to action, action creates the perfect spell for us, and then only focus is needed for its success.

We cannot have the method without the belief/credential because methods aren't built from the nothingness.
Somebody had to believe that its elements and relations among them are going to lead to the successful spell.

There you are. You can still take action without believing in the spell. So belief doesn't matter, action does.

[Nemesis]

No, there isn't only one approach that can make a spell work. There are many approaches that are effective, but that doesn't mean that every approach is effective.
The key to a successful spell is a successful method. If it works, it's a successful method.
You can still take action without believing in the spell. So belief doesn't matter, action does.

But we all are different in our mindsets, spiritual cores etc.
It's like fingerprint.
And that fingerprint contains our unique power.

How then one method could work for more people?
I think that each one of us has to find out their own in which they believe to achieve success.

And in that case we are making this method based at what we find out the most effective for us.

Ok. Going to give you an example.
The person close to me suffered from the chronical illness.
I decided to use some magic to heal her.
I asked myself what would work the best for me, picking up different things from different sources and making the unique soup from these, and also adding my own "gut feeling" ingredients.
So, mostly improvization it were.
An improvization in which i believed, with one demon involved, massage and vizualization technique they taught me during the connecting ritual i performed based at my own intuition/"gut" and a few after-ritual actions i believed that could catalise the thing.

A result? - Success.
The very next day, that person woke up feeling better, and in the next few days their condition became very good, she recovered completely.

If you want to know the exact steps and details, i am more than glad to share these with you.
But i am not sure if this method will suit to your individual energy signature and mindset/belief system, the best.

[Nemesis]

If you think 'destruction' is a negative, unevolved trait, then you're never going to grow. This really isn't a matter of opinion, it is a matter of experience. You cannot become something better without destroying the old first. This destruction can take your world and turn it upside down in the worst way possible, it can kill, it can maim, it can shatter everything you know. Destruction is another side to Creation and that duality is pure. Destruction isn't a lowly construct that takes us further away from spirit.

Oh i have re-red your answer one more time today and realized i misunderstood it.
You are talking about the fact destruction can help you in the process of growth.

I am absolutely with you here!
Cannot agree more.
And it matches my general opinion that destruction is neccessary thing too, just as the construction.
We can learn much even from the destruction pointed toward us with intention to destroy, not help to us.

Destructive species are teaching us how to fight for survival on more efficient way, so we can avoid the demise.
Our own shadow work is sometimes the process of destroying old useless mindset and habits which didn't serve us.
That destruction is here to help us, we are helping ourselves by maintaining it, and even if we fail in that challengefull spiritual advancement process and destroy also something usefull for us, it teaches us something.

Tho, after all, all this destruction, weather done to help or done to destroy, speaking generaly, cannot be the final goal, cannot be more than a neccessary step at the path of enlightenment.
The step which leads to the ultimate goal of inner peace and everything nice that derives from it.
Of course, here i am talking about the human and some more superb species who are created on the way to be aware of the value the inner peace and love have for an individual, once achieved.

Species created without the ability to realize this, cannot see the destruction as the step toward the greatness, than only the final goal.
And so - ok, those species are equally worth as ours are, because without the negativity, without the destruction in the universe, there wouldn't be... well, there wouldn't even BE that universe.

[HansPuchsbaum]

Cultures based at these are at the lower point of spiritual development than those based at love, tolerance and understanding.
But these are going to evolve, as every living creature tends to...

Have to put my 2 cents here. Not that I dissagree, just wanted to elaborate. Some cultures simply refuse to evolve. The consequence being that they get bannished to history books.