Ethical Magick, Karma, The Three-fold Law

Questions and Answers for where to begin on the Darker Spiritual Paths.

Moderator: Akelta

Post Reply
User avatar
User1265455
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:28 pm
Patron Deities: Paimon, Asmoday, Leviathan, Azazel, Amducius
Your favourite Demon?: Paimon
Number of Demon Familiars: 12
Location: Southeastern Missouri
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 301 times

Conversation from The Occult Server & Library - original question: "Is using a sigil to heighten a pre-existing emotion in someone unethical?" Several people threw out Karma and "the three-fold law" and so... I happened.

Okay. First of all - the "three-fold law" was literally INVENTED, specifically to put the training wheels on wiccans and to make christians feel safe. The idea of the three fold law was that once you were initiated past a certain point, you'd be taught that actually, that's not a thing, and here's how and when to do curses and hexes safely. Needless to say, there are now so many wiccans out there who have NEVER been initiated, and therefore never got to that point.

SECONDLY - Karma as understood in the west is... Wrong. It's just flat out wrong. Karma isn't some giant universal foot waiting to kick you for some mystical judgment of right and wrong, good and evil. Good and evil themselves are subjective judgments - what you think of as bad is not necessarily bad. There's this chinese parable, of the Horse Farmer - he goes out one day and finds a herd of wild horses. He brings them home, and his neighbors say, "That's really good!" And he says, "good, bad, who knows." The next day, his son goes out to break in the horses, falls off one and breaks his leg. "That's bad." "Good, bad, who knows?" The next day, the army comes through and conscripts all the young men in the village... except the farmer's son.

Karma, in the eastern philosophy, is ripples. Picture a very VERY still lake. Now, throw a rock into it and watch the ripples spread. Now, understand that every action done by every person is a rock thrown into that lake. Sometimes, the ripples converge, and make a bigger wave. Sometimes they cancel each other out. Sometimes you can be hit by a wave created by rocks you have no connection to. Sometimes your own rocks can have no effect on you.

Karma is the result of actions - it's NOT a judgment. The idea that what you do will come back on you is preposterous and not supported by realistic observable experiences.

There's this concept in Norse paganism that I'm sure I'm going to explain incorrectly because I'm not a Norse pagan, but it's an image that really stuck to me. It's called Wyrd.

Wyrd is a river, full of reeds and rocks. You are a drop of water on that river. Every other drop behind you are choices made. Some by people you know, some by people you will never see. Some by environments, some by governments, some by religious movements... And all of it, ALL of it, affects you. It guides you, pushes you, steadily forward.

You make the choices you make because of everything that went into making you - the choices people made around you as you grew, the choices made around them, the choices that society has made, the choices that philosophy and religion made, the choices that history made.

This web of decisions impacts what you will choose, and all of it is unseen, and slowly narrows down until the words, "I have no choice, I have to do this," come out of your mouth, and for you, it's absolutely true because you can be no other person, make no other choice, than the one you make when its before you.

The whole idea of karmic blowback is nonsense.

You decide what ethics you want to have. You decide what's good and bad, and you act in a way that agrees with that judgment. You may change your mind at a later date.

Spell work of any kind, if you consider acting against other people, is unethical. You taking control of the world and yourself, and using that control to influence the world to better suit your needs and desires, knowing that doing so will affect other people who are in that world and thus influenced by your magickal actions, is unethical from that perspective.

However, I don't consider it unethical. In Bozbeeb's example, using a sigil to "fan the flames" of someone's emotions... considering there are MANY ways to fan the flames of someone's emotions, and magick is only ONE of those ways... considering that if I know a person and I know exactly what buttons to push to get them to act a certain way WITHOUT magick, is that unethical?

People manipulate each other all the time. How is using magick to do it different? It's like arguing that glamor is unacceptable, while saying that make-up is ok.

These discussions of morals and ethics... there's no point to them. Either you look at your actions and judge them as ethical by your own standards, or you look at those actions and judge them as not ethical. If you insist on having unrealistic perceptions, your ethics will never be met. It's better to understand that magick is just like anything else - another tool for manipulating reality - and people are part of that reality - and either you're ok with that, or you should put your books up, burn your wand, and move on.

~fin
"She’s all the unsung heroes who... never quit." ― R. A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” ― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.”
― H.L. Mencken, Prejudices: First Series
User avatar
CountNastros
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:15 pm
Location: Colorado
Has thanked: 26 times
Been thanked: 4 times
Contact:

Very well put. Some of what you said reminded me of this book. It's a good listen or read if you haven't and have some free time.

https://youtu.be/ZtzLwjYuET0
User avatar
Leo Sierra
Posts: 529
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:27 am
Patron Deities: Pazuzu, Lillith
Your favourite Demon?: Mutilations and Crypts
Number of Demon Familiars: 3
Has thanked: 158 times
Been thanked: 97 times

Excellent post.

I am also not a Norse pagan, so I’m not sure how the concept of wyrd would deal with the concept of free will. Or if it means that absolutely everything is pre-ordained thus negating the idea that an individual’s choices are truly free.
User avatar
User1265455
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:28 pm
Patron Deities: Paimon, Asmoday, Leviathan, Azazel, Amducius
Your favourite Demon?: Paimon
Number of Demon Familiars: 12
Location: Southeastern Missouri
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 301 times

TaipanTwist wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:26 am
Excellent post.

I am also not a Norse pagan, so I’m not sure how the concept of wyrd would deal with the concept of free will. Or if it means that absolutely everything is pre-ordained thus negating the idea that an individual’s choices are truly free.
Not that everything is "pre-ordained," more that the choices you make are based on more than just the obvious, visible factors - the hidden factors are a much larger part of those choices.

If you know yourself and your history, if you know the history of others who influenced you, it's easy to mitigate those hidden factors, but few people bother to learn such things, and so they ARE caught up in the web of "fate," but it's not a NECESSARY thing, just the most likely.

The Norse WERE big believers in fate, but they also believed that if they made an educated choice, that, too, was fate. They did not sit idly by because fate controlled everything - they actively faced all problems, all challenges, because they believed that they could make their fate - that it wasn't a static thing. While you have all that wyrd pushing you from behind, you are also what pushes that which is before you, therefore you do have an influence on fate - and not just your own. It was important to them to make sure the fates they created for others were just - it wasn't right to create messes for the future to have to clean up. You kept the river as clean as you could.

So yes it's fate, but not as we think of it these days - it wasn't a disempowering idea, it wasn't based on victimhood.
"She’s all the unsung heroes who... never quit." ― R. A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” ― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.”
― H.L. Mencken, Prejudices: First Series
User avatar
Antipodean
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 2:34 pm
Your favourite Demon?: Agares
Number of Demon Familiars: 3
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Nyctophilia Raven wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:33 pm
Several people threw out Karma and "the three-fold law" and so... I happened. ...The whole idea of karmic blowback is nonsense.
Ditto. Thanks for this!

I find the notion of 'karma' to be mean, spiteful, intensely judgemental, even dangerous.

I have a post 'The nasty drama of karma' on my personal blog. fwiw
User avatar
User1265455
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:28 pm
Patron Deities: Paimon, Asmoday, Leviathan, Azazel, Amducius
Your favourite Demon?: Paimon
Number of Demon Familiars: 12
Location: Southeastern Missouri
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 301 times

Antipodean wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:49 pm

I find the notion of 'karma' to be mean, spiteful, intensely judgemental, even dangerous.

I have a post 'The nasty drama of karma' on my personal blog. fwiw
I read that post and yes, Yes, YES! Excellently stated. :devillove:
"She’s all the unsung heroes who... never quit." ― R. A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” ― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
“Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.”
― H.L. Mencken, Prejudices: First Series
User avatar
Antipodean
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat May 30, 2020 2:34 pm
Your favourite Demon?: Agares
Number of Demon Familiars: 3
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 94 times
Been thanked: 8 times
Contact:

Nyctophilia Raven wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:42 am
I read that post and yes, Yes, YES! Excellently stated. :devillove:
Thanks for your kind comments. Much appreciated.

I have much more happening that I could write about than I put into the public blog. For some reason, the topic of Karma came up at work, and I was shocked to hear most of my colleagues supported the notion.
Nyctophilia Raven wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:33 pm
Several people threw out Karma and "the three-fold law" and so... I happened.
Similar to you, I couldn't help myself and that whole post just erupted within a week.
User avatar
Darth Moronius
Posts: 1568
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:18 am
Has thanked: 85 times
Been thanked: 91 times

i know hindu guy from india say before that karma is used to excuse caste systeme in india, so low caste people dont rebel. if they rebel, more bad karma, worse reincanation in next life. if high caste torment them but they dont rebel still, veru good karma, maybe next life reincarnation they get high caste :devilread:
User avatar
Passchendaele
Posts: 1012
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:41 am
Patron Deities: none (yet)
Your favourite Demon?: Beelzebub, Lucifer, Lord Satan, Marquess Marchosias
Number of Demon Familiars: 0
Location: Pacific North West but not the hip part
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 123 times

Many thanks Raven. You explained this often confusing subject wonderfully. I would ask for a follow-up on the subject of "sin"
but that's just shooting fish in a barrel. It's not fair to the fish, and you'll end up owing someone a new barrel. :devilshock:
"Push something hard enough...and it will fall over."
Fudds First Law Of Opposition

“All art that is not mere storytelling or mere portraiture is symbolic...If you liberate a person or a landscape from the bonds of motives and their actions, causes and their effects...it will change under your eyes, and become a symbol of infinite emotion, a perfected emotion, a part of the Dark Divine Essence.”

William Butler Yeats

(The italicized word “dark” is my addition.)
User avatar
PorkyPig
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:44 am
Location: Italy
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

I have spent almost 8 years in India , months in Buddhist and Hindu monasteries, so I know what in Those Worldviews is meant by Karma: of course there are different Schools, theistic and non-theistic.
Anyway, Karma is not the Christian Belief in a sort of Universal Judgement but without a too anthropomorphic Judge and with a pinch of Reincarnation. The Lake Metaphor is very accurate.

Yes, Wicca is deeply Christianized or better Victorian-ized: 'Witches are good people' the founders wanted to project a very reassuring image. 'We do not eat children, burn churches or behead cats: we are good citizens'. The result is a certain sentimentalism lingering there, the same atmosphere you feel while watching Oprah's old talk-shows on You Tube.

I am sure Wicca might be helpful for some persons ( especially 50 year old middle class ladies who feel a bit lonely ) but it can become a bit wishy-washy, they will dance holding their hands around the Pachamama with the blessing of a liberal Catholic priest, while a gay couple prepares the barbecue for African refugees near a mosque .

So whatever even remotely smells of Black Magic cannot but cause repulsion: they adhere , after all , to a libertarian (John Stuart Mill's philosophy seems to have inspired the Rede) kind of ethics which is not too far from the one preached by a moderate Christian .

P.S. Of course I respect the beliefs of Wiccans, generally you find among them rather honest persons
Post Reply

Return to “Starting out on the LHP and the Dark Spiritual Paths”