I'm undecided. I have doubts with my belief.

[Archdregs]

I was born and raised as a Christian but then I have doubts with my belief and deconverted to Atheism. It wasn't long because of supernatural phenomenons that happened to Christians, including what happened to my father.

Allow me to tell you a story that happened to my father. He is a hardcore Christian and a judge. One day in court, my father begin to ask a witness. The witness was a dukun (Indonesian, translated to "shaman" in google translate), and actually the most powerful one on the island where he live. "Sir, what's your name?", asked my father. The dukun doesn't not answer. Instead, he looked like muttering some words in silence. My father asked again yet the dukun still not answering. Knowing something is not right, my father started to pray silently (no one knows that my father was praying). And then suddenly, the dukun's chair broke and he fell. Then my father suspended the session. Straightly afterwards, the dukun's relative come to my father saying, "Sorry Sir. We didn't know that you a are a more powerful dukun".

After hearing that story I finally come to a conclusion that God exist and Jesus is God. I no longer have doubts and became a hardcore Christian too. But it was not long until I found out about illogical claims on how Lucifer fallen and became the Devil. I wonder, why did the most perfect being created by God rebel to him, knowing that it would surely leads to eternal damnation in hell? Christians said it was because of Lucifer's pride. But then again, what did he proud of if all of his greatness is from the God? Isn't God the one who should be prideful? Again, Christian said that God had given all his creation free will. Then I wondered, why did Lu chose hell as his free will gift?

Free will in Christian is nonsense to me. Just like nonstampcollector's video on Youtube, God gives a plethora of choices from "a" to "z" but if we chose other than, for instance, "p", then we surely be tortured in hell. If that's the case, why did God bother giving us free will?

So now I'm back to square one. Confused. Even more confused because there's a staunch Atheist that turned Catholic because of Eucharistic Miracles that happened to a host in Buenos Aires (see Youtube).

What do you folks think about this? I really hope you would give elaborate explanations on this.

Thank you.

[DoubleD]

Happy Sunday. First off thanks for sharing your story, it takes courage to ask questions my friend, courage you certainly don't lack. Hang on to that.

So you are going to get a ton of answers to your questions here and trust me when I say none of them will be right. What will be right is how this resonates with you personally. Don't get hung up on names or specific beings, whether they are light or dark on the spectrum, instead focus on the common sense of it all.

While I do believe there is one source, I don't believe in one god, nor do I fully support modern gods that fit a particular construct, but that's me, others feel different and that is great.

I don't believe (and many OOB experiencers and flat-liners have said) that there is this notion of a nasty hell and a blue sky heaven based on how we behave on earth. I think all people are here to learn a lesson, each of us a different one. If we learn it maybe we move up the ladder of ascension, if we fail or we are horrible people, we have things to account for. I don't believe any gods have us here to test us, and I fully subscribe to the Sitchin theories of alien creation, not some magical being in the sky.

But this is just me, and as I stated above you will get a million different theories, all wrong, and all right. What matters is how you feel about this, how do you feel when you read the damnation and fire theories? Does that sit well?

I also believe we don't need to change minds and hearts, that is up to each individual, what we do need to do is live in accord to our natural beliefs and accept those around us as they are.

that is my take, thanks for asking this though, it is a great question and one worthy of discussion. Just don't get hung up on the different answers you get.

[NationsReborn]

Dear Archdregs,
I am not an expert in Christian theology, but I'll try to explain the Christian angle as best as I can.

First of all, some definitions:
Lucifer (Also known as Hillel ben Sahar; הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר; Lit: Hillel the son of Dawn) was according to the Christian belief a former Archangel. We will look on him from the Christian side for now as there are better individuals here to explain this from his side (not claiming which is more valid, just explaining)
God (Also known as the four letters God) is the God of the bible, we will look at him from the Christian interpretation for now
Now, for the script.

From Isaiah 14:(12-15)
"אֵיךְ נָפַלְתָּ מִשָּׁמַיִם, הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר, נִגְדַּעְתָּ לָאָרֶץ, חוֹלֵשׁ עַל גּוֹיִם. וְאַתָּה אָמַרְתָּ בִלְבָבְךָ: הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶעֱלֶה מִמַּעַל לְכוֹכְבֵי אֵל, אָרִים כִּסְאִי וְאֵשֵׁב בְּהַר מוֹעֵד, בְּיַרְכְּתֵי צָפוֹן, אֶעֱלֶה עַל בָּמֳתֵי עָב, אֶדַּמֶּה לְעֶלְיוֹן. אַךְ אֶל שְׁאוֹל תּוּרָד, אֶל יַרְכְּתֵי בוֹר."
Literal Translation, with additions to make sense of it in English (noted like this):
"How did you fall, Hillel son of Dawn, you have been cast down to earth, (you who once) controlled the nations. And you say in thy heart: I'll ascend to the heavens above the stars of God, I'll raise my throne and will sit in the Mount of Assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon, I will ascend above, (to the) land fit for the supreme. But you are brought down to the realm of the fallen, to the depths of the pit."

So off from the start we can see the answer to your first question. He did not fall because of his 'pride' (though he certainly had plenty of it to spare), he fell because he tried to launch a Coup d'état against God or at the very least he tried to ascend above all other angels. We can now also understand his motives, you could easily understand why I being as powerful as him would aspire for more. (note here: he is not God's 'most perfect being', at least he is not presented here as such). Lucifer might have thought to himself "I deserve better", and surely the idea of becoming God would lure such being. But he failed and was exiled (which is the common result of a failed coup)

In addition, the Hebrew word שְׁאוֹל can be understood in many ways, 'Hell' and 'The realm of the Dead' are indeed correct translations. But as you see I choose to translate it to "The realm of the Fallen", which is why I understand his punishment as an exile from the heavens, and not some "Sent to a burning place to spend all eternity in". But this is my translation, so I could be wrong

How much is this is an allegory, and how much of this is a description of events is not for me to decide, this is a matter of your personal beliefs.

Now, I'll end with few words on the subject of free will.
You see, in the end, what does "Good" mean with there is no other option? Imagine a long line of robots programmed to dispense food for the poor. are they "Good"? Well the people who built them and supplied them sure are "Good" none will question that, but the robot is simply doing his job. The same is for the opposite way. If by some mistake one of the food items was rotten, we would not blame the robot for being "Bad" and for "poisoning the poor". Same as before, he was just doing his job.

This allegory was designed to expose you to the idea that "Morality" is meaningless without "Choice". This is why Free Will exist so that when a person acts, for better or for worse, he is the master of his actions. And the praise, or the blame, for his actions, lays only on him and as such it is just to judge him based on that.
That's only the tip of the iceberg, but this post is already long enough

I hope this helps,
Nations

[Aprophis]

I wonder, why did the most perfect being created by God rebel to him, knowing that it would surely leads to eternal damnation in hell? Christians said it was because of Lucifer's pride. But then again, what did he proud of if all of his greatness is from the God? Isn't God the one who should be prideful? Again, Christian said that God had given all his creation free will. Then I wondered, why did Lu chose hell as his free will gift?

Well, I'm playing pro christian here, just for the fun of it.
Let's say you have a job for someone, punishment for the evil people. Who'd you choose? Your favourite son or someone else?

Another side is, Lucifers rebellion was said to be what caused free will. Others say he rebelled because Humans got free will and Angels didn't, even though they should have been Gods favourite so why were Humans gifted that?

Free will in Christian is nonsense to me. Just like nonstampcollector's video on Youtube, God gives a plethora of choices from "a" to "z" but if we chose other than, for instance, "p", then we surely be tortured in hell. If that's the case, why did God bother giving us free will?

Free will doesn't really make sense if there's no wrong choice. Or rather said, choices with bad consequences. If nothing would ever have a negative consequence, you would never learn from your mistakes. There would be no reason to, because nothing bad would happen.
Besides, you can always repent and get your out of hell card.

[Archdregs]

Free will doesn't really make sense if there's no wrong choice. Or rather said, choices with bad consequences. If nothing would ever have a negative consequence, you would never learn from your mistakes. There would be no reason to, because nothing bad would happen.
Besides, you can always repent and get your out of hell card.

I'm sorry, let me rephrase it.

There are 10 choices of apples. They are all excellent quality. You can pick one apple out of ten but if you choose other than apple 3, you'll be damned to hell.

In that case, everything is wrong choices. Except 1 one choice.

[Catamite]

I was born and raised as a Christian but then I have doubts with my belief and deconverted to Atheism. It wasn't long because of supernatural phenomenons that happened to Christians, including what happened to my father.

Allow me to tell you a story that happened to my father. He is a hardcore Christian and a judge. One day in court, my father begin to ask a witness. The witness was a dukun (Indonesian, translated to "shaman" in google translate), and actually the most powerful one on the island where he live. "Sir, what's your name?", asked my father. The dukun doesn't not answer. Instead, he looked like muttering some words in silence. My father asked again yet the dukun still not answering. Knowing something is not right, my father started to pray silently (no one knows that my father was praying). And then suddenly, the dukun's chair broke and he fell. Then my father suspended the session. Straightly afterwards, the dukun's relative come to my father saying, "Sorry Sir. We didn't know that you a are a more powerful dukun".

After hearing that story I finally come to a conclusion that God exist and Jesus is God. I no longer have doubts and became a hardcore Christian too. But it was not long until I found out about illogical claims on how Lucifer fallen and became the Devil. I wonder, why did the most perfect being created by God rebel to him, knowing that it would surely leads to eternal damnation in hell? Christians said it was because of Lucifer's pride. But then again, what did he proud of if all of his greatness is from the God? Isn't God the one who should be prideful? Again, Christian said that God had given all his creation free will. Then I wondered, why did Lu chose hell as his free will gift?

Free will in Christian is nonsense to me. Just like nonstampcollector's video on Youtube, God gives a plethora of choices from "a" to "z" but if we chose other than, for instance, "p", then we surely be tortured in hell. If that's the case, why did God bother giving us free will?

So now I'm back to square one. Confused. Even more confused because there's a staunch Atheist that turned Catholic because of Eucharistic Miracles that happened to a host in Buenos Aires (see Youtube).

What do you folks think about this? I really hope you would give elaborate explanations on this.

Thank you.

In my personal belief with Christian theology I think that Lucifer was not cast down to hell for a rebellion but rather that he was the perfect fit for the job. An angel of light and knowledge and wisdom... someone with keen judgement and what is light if not judgment? It purges darknes and shows you all the horrid and ugly things that can lie within and also the beauties that have been hidden away. I believe in Christian theology God sent Lucifer to hell not to damn him but because he was the perfect fit for the job. Lucifer rebelled at the thought of this because God pushed this job upon him. The only way to actually get him to go through with it was to damn him... pluck the wings from the beautiful lord of light and just watch him fall to the fiery pits of hell where he would judge the souls of sinners for eternity.

Another theory I have is that Lucifer being the angle of wisdom simply showed his beliefs of individualism by giving the gift of knowledge to man... with this knowledge man began to evolve and it's clear to us that God is a being of stasis. He wished for just Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden forever and ever for all of eternity. Lucifer being an entity of light hated this idea. He was wisdom and knowledge which are used to make judgements but what's to judge when everything is the same. Knowledge is power and power creates change and so Lucifer wished to share his gift and for this he was damned to hell.

The thing I don't see is Lucifer wasting his time day by day to tempt humans to do evil deeds. If the Christian theology is correct then I believe Lucifer rather is a being of change and individualism and wants humans to be free to change and be free to be our own people. The nature of change is chaos and though chaos can make good changes it can also make bad and this is what God did not want and this is why Christianity can be so strict. Christianity is a means to make you stay the same forever and ever preserved in innocence as the teachings of Lucifer is to seek wisdom, become your own individual person, and create change. These are the two entities that hold balance in the world rather than good and evil it is more or less like order and stasis and chaos and change. Darkness is the original element of stasis as light is the element of change. If anything God is darkness. Darkness came before. The only way to have a universe without darkness is if you have light everywhere but a universe without light can exist because darkness is always present. This is why I believe God came before Lucifer...

Take this theory and look and think it over I truly hope it helps you and gives you things to think about and really help you form your own beliefs in this life.

[tee]

I'm sorry, let me rephrase it.

There are 10 choices of apples. They are all excellent quality. You can pick one apple out of ten but if you choose other than apple 3, you'll be damned to hell.

In that case, everything is wrong choices. Except 1 one choice.

My personal belief (which not many will agree with) with is that these are still choices that anyone is free to make. Anyone could still choose any of those apples, it's their choice. The only difference is that if you, as an individual, truly believe in God, you would follow the rules He laid out for His followers in the bible, because you are His follower and you believe in him. So if God says pick apple 3, His followers would pick apple 3 they are complying with the will of God.

I'm a rebellious person, so if anyone, even the gods, told me to pick apple 3 or else I would pick any apple but apple 3 just because.

There's another way to look at it. Anything but apple 3 may have some hidden poison that only God can see. Some things that are outlawed in the bible are truly not good for people (e.g. killing, stealing etc.) Then there's the classic dilemma of what if someone needs to support their family, including children but cannot afford it? Knowing that stealing is fundamentally wrong, but also knowing that stealing is the only way to tide them through until the next paycheck? Would they pick the forbidden apple?

So yeah, I think it boils down to how willing you are to follow the path that God laid out for you despite any circumstances, though I don't think many will agree with me on this.

[DoubleD]

So yeah, I think it boils down to how willing you are to follow the path that God laid out for you despite any circumstances, though I don't think many will agree with me on this.

If some predefined path has been actually chosen for each person. i don't ascribe to this theory at all but that is just me.

[Nefer]

I was born and raised as a Christian but then I have doubts with my belief and deconverted to Atheism. It wasn't long because of supernatural phenomenons that happened to Christians, including what happened to my father.

Allow me to tell you a story that happened to my father. He is a hardcore Christian and a judge. One day in court, my father begin to ask a witness. The witness was a dukun (Indonesian, translated to "shaman" in google translate), and actually the most powerful one on the island where he live. "Sir, what's your name?", asked my father. The dukun doesn't not answer. Instead, he looked like muttering some words in silence. My father asked again yet the dukun still not answering. Knowing something is not right, my father started to pray silently (no one knows that my father was praying). And then suddenly, the dukun's chair broke and he fell. Then my father suspended the session. Straightly afterwards, the dukun's relative come to my father saying, "Sorry Sir. We didn't know that you a are a more powerful dukun".

After hearing that story I finally come to a conclusion that God exist and Jesus is God. I no longer have doubts and became a hardcore Christian too. But it was not long until I found out about illogical claims on how Lucifer fallen and became the Devil. I wonder, why did the most perfect being created by God rebel to him, knowing that it would surely leads to eternal damnation in hell? Christians said it was because of Lucifer's pride. But then again, what did he proud of if all of his greatness is from the God? Isn't God the one who should be prideful? Again, Christian said that God had given all his creation free will. Then I wondered, why did Lu chose hell as his free will gift?

Free will in Christian is nonsense to me. Just like nonstampcollector's video on Youtube, God gives a plethora of choices from "a" to "z" but if we chose other than, for instance, "p", then we surely be tortured in hell. If that's the case, why did God bother giving us free will?

So now I'm back to square one. Confused. Even more confused because there's a staunch Atheist that turned Catholic because of Eucharistic Miracles that happened to a host in Buenos Aires (see Youtube).

What do you folks think about this? I really hope you would give elaborate explanations on this.

Thank you.

In my personal belief with Christian theology I think that Lucifer was not cast down to hell for a rebellion but rather that he was the perfect fit for the job. An angel of light and knowledge and wisdom... someone with keen judgement and what is light if not judgment? It purges darknes and shows you all the horrid and ugly things that can lie within and also the beauties that have been hidden away. I believe in Christian theology God sent Lucifer to hell not to damn him but because he was the perfect fit for the job. Lucifer rebelled at the thought of this because God pushed this job upon him. The only way to actually get him to go through with it was to damn him... pluck the wings from the beautiful lord of light and just watch him fall to the fiery pits of hell where he would judge the souls of sinners for eternity.

Another theory I have is that Lucifer being the angle of wisdom simply showed his beliefs of individualism by giving the gift of knowledge to man... with this knowledge man began to evolve and it's clear to us that God is a being of stasis. He wished for just Adam and Eve and the garden of Eden forever and ever for all of eternity. Lucifer being an entity of light hated this idea. He was wisdom and knowledge which are used to make judgements but what's to judge when everything is the same. Knowledge is power and power creates change and so Lucifer wished to share his gift and for this he was damned to hell.

The thing I don't see is Lucifer wasting his time day by day to tempt humans to do evil deeds. If the Christian theology is correct then I believe Lucifer rather is a being of change and individualism and wants humans to be free to change and be free to be our own people. The nature of change is chaos and though chaos can make good changes it can also make bad and this is what God did not want and this is why Christianity can be so strict. Christianity is a means to make you stay the same forever and ever preserved in innocence as the teachings of Lucifer is to seek wisdom, become your own individual person, and create change. These are the two entities that hold balance in the world rather than good and evil it is more or less like order and stasis and chaos and change. Darkness is the original element of stasis as light is the element of change. If anything God is darkness. Darkness came before. The only way to have a universe without darkness is if you have light everywhere but a universe without light can exist because darkness is always present. This is why I believe God came before Lucifer...

Take this theory and look and think it over I truly hope it helps you and gives you things to think about and really help you form your own beliefs in this life.

Very interesting concepts cat. I like them, a lot.