Never summon what you cannot banish? Opinions/ideas?

Questions and Answers for where to begin on the Darker Spiritual Paths.

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Kharybdis
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Just for the sake of argument, a crude metaphor:

Any living thing you invite inside your home, or inside your life, has the potential to cause you serious harm. Why would this not be the case with non-corporeal entities, as well?
I love my cat, for example. We have a good time together, and she's my little buddy. However, if I cross a line with her, she is 100% capable of sending me to the hospital despite only being 2 feet long and about 10 pounds. A dog would be all the more capable of wrecking my shit, and another human being? My mother and I could absolutely kill one another. We don't, because we both benefit from one another. Same with my cat. Same with any pet, or any friend. If you both benefit from the arrangement, and you both mutually enjoy said arrangement, then there is a much lower chance that either of you is going to do any form of harm (psychological, physical, or otherwise) to the other.

It's the same with demons, spirits, and immortals. If you have an arrangement that doesn't interest them, they'll likely just ignore you. Maybe they'll mess with you a little if they find you particularly laughable, depending on the entity. But if you have an arrangement counter to their interests in any way? If you do something that obstructs their own needs, plans, or desires? They may very well cause you harm, just as if you refuse to feed a dog for awhile it will eventually turn on you and take its pound of flesh for the insult.

Does this mean you can't have an excellent working relationship with a spirit or deity? Of course not. But does this mean that said spirit or deity with whom you have a great relationship can't cause you harm? Absolutely not.

Even human best friends hurt one another sometimes, because everyone ultimately pursues their own needs and interests, and sometimes that runs counter to what someone else needs or desires. There are arguments. Sometimes, there are outright fights. Sometimes, relationships break down, and whatever trust, respect, and care you did have for one another goes out the window entirely, and this person you once called friend now actively works against you.

Spirits, whatever their 'category' for our community, are not immune to this behavior. We may not exactly comprehend their motives, nor particularly understand where they're coming from as their viewpoint is so distant from ours in so many cases. But this just means that, in any relationship we form with them, we work with caution, and make sure to peaceably break an arrangement if we find it is no longer suitable to our personal needs--or prepare to fight (in this case, banish/ward/shield/etc. or even engage in magical warfare with) said entity. Will it happen often that you have to have all-out war with a being like a demon or a god? Probably not! They have better things to do. But if you antagonize them? If you hand over all your power to them and expect them to do the work for you? If you ask them to have ONLY your best interests at heart, and not their own wants/needs/desires?

It's going to end badly for you, just as if you yank a cat's tail.
HansPuchsbaum
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Noctua wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:55 pm
HansPuchsbaum wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:51 pm

If I'm allowed to add my 5 cents. Some of us just don't care about danger. So we don't care *what* and *where* danger comes from ;)
Yes, thank you for reminding me of the edgelord community. I wouldn't want to ostracize them from the mix.
Nope. Nothing edgy about it. Let's say you wanted to achieve something, I mean really wanted ie "I'll get to my goal, or I'll die trying". Do you care about the danger? No. Do you care what and where the danger comes from? No. You're focused on your goal and any thoughts about the danger would disturb your focus.
They took me to a preacher...
... Who said that "for small donation my lost soul will be saved"
I said that I don't think so preacher, I'll come back another day.
HansPuchsbaum
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Kharybdis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:57 pm

Even human best friends hurt one another sometimes, because everyone ultimately pursues their own needs and interests, and sometimes that runs counter to what someone else needs or desires.
No. Just no. Real friends never, ever, ever hurt one another. The very definition of friendship in my book is that you are willing to put someone else's interests, needs, and desires above your own. Otherwise, you're just acquaintances.

One might think to have lots of friends, but let's take an extreme example. For how many of those would you be willing to step in front of a bullet. The list gets shorter very quickly.

As for your cat example, and it also connects to what nemesis was saying, I am perfectly able to rip cats tail of (not just yank it), without it being able to do anything about it but scream. But do I do it? No. It's the same with demons. If one would really want to hurt us, it would, protection methods or not.
They took me to a preacher...
... Who said that "for small donation my lost soul will be saved"
I said that I don't think so preacher, I'll come back another day.
HansPuchsbaum
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Cult wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:25 pm
You just repeated what you said previously in a more extensive way. I've already addressed those things.

One more time:

4. Results aren't dependent on belief.
But of course, they are. Try meditating if you don't believe in meditation. Try summoning spirits if you don't believe in them. Try getting that girl you like if you don't believe you can get her. Good luck in all three cases.
They took me to a preacher...
... Who said that "for small donation my lost soul will be saved"
I said that I don't think so preacher, I'll come back another day.
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Darth Moronius
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:popcorndevil:
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Nemesis
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Cult wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:25 pm
You just repeated what you said previously in a more extensive way. I've already addressed those things.

One more time:

1. Inner peace and joy is not necessarily the ultimate, objective goal.
2. Human psychology doesn't apply to demons because they are not human.
3. Psychological development is not what makes or breaks spiritual development.
4. Results aren't dependent on belief.
Well now i re-red it all again, and yes i extended the thing all over the place, lost a bit in my insights so maybe one could miss the point.
It was early morning almost in my "cave", maybe that's the reason! :sleepdevil:

Now i am going to answer to you more precisely at these statements you have counted:
1. Here we disagree. Explained my view at it already. Whatever one wishes the final goal of the wish is the emotion of inner peace and joy.
What do you think, what's the final goal?
2. Demons are spirits just as we.
They also communicate with us/react at us following the concept which matches the concept of our psychology, so that's why i think it's kinda similar.
3. I think psychological development is the main card in that.
Spiritual development cannot happen if you are emotionaly broken and unstabile.
You can have some spiritual powers tho, you can be successful in using these, but you will just harm yourself at the end of story.
Just like i said above: you can successfuly curse for example, also as a spirit itself you can project to someone's home and split them at half, but you won't get back anything than their negativity and possibly the vengeance too.
Even the afterlife one.
4. The belief is our fuel imo. Have you ever succeed to attain some successful magic with believing you cannot achieve it, or with doubt of any kind?
Why plenty of practitioners (me too sometimes) struggle with doubts in their mind so much in order to achieve the desired goal?

I hope i succeed to transfer to you my thoughts now at more clear and short way. :)
Embrace the moment, seek to know, follow the flow, live your passion and do it all with spirit.
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Passemoon
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HansPuchsbaum wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Kharybdis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:57 pm

Even human best friends hurt one another sometimes, because everyone ultimately pursues their own needs and interests, and sometimes that runs counter to what someone else needs or desires.
No. Just no. Real friends never, ever, ever hurt one another. The very definition of friendship in my book is that you are willing to put someone else's interests, needs, and desires above your own. Otherwise, you're just acquaintances.
Sigh, in an ideal world at an ideal time and moment where we are all ideal people living with ideal one another, we can all put our hands together and sing kumbaya all day... :winkdevil:
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Nemesis
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Kharybdis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:57 pm
Just for the sake of argument, a crude metaphor:

Any living thing you invite inside your home, or inside your life, has the potential to cause you serious harm. Why would this not be the case with non-corporeal entities, as well?
I love my cat, for example. We have a good time together, and she's my little buddy. However, if I cross a line with her, she is 100% capable of sending me to the hospital despite only being 2 feet long and about 10 pounds. A dog would be all the more capable of wrecking my shit, and another human being? My mother and I could absolutely kill one another. We don't, because we both benefit from one another. Same with my cat. Same with any pet, or any friend. If you both benefit from the arrangement, and you both mutually enjoy said arrangement, then there is a much lower chance that either of you is going to do any form of harm (psychological, physical, or otherwise) to the other.

It's the same with demons, spirits, and immortals. If you have an arrangement that doesn't interest them, they'll likely just ignore you. Maybe they'll mess with you a little if they find you particularly laughable, depending on the entity. But if you have an arrangement counter to their interests in any way? If you do something that obstructs their own needs, plans, or desires? They may very well cause you harm, just as if you refuse to feed a dog for awhile it will eventually turn on you and take its pound of flesh for the insult.

Does this mean you can't have an excellent working relationship with a spirit or deity? Of course not. But does this mean that said spirit or deity with whom you have a great relationship can't cause you harm? Absolutely not.

Even human best friends hurt one another sometimes, because everyone ultimately pursues their own needs and interests, and sometimes that runs counter to what someone else needs or desires. There are arguments. Sometimes, there are outright fights. Sometimes, relationships break down, and whatever trust, respect, and care you did have for one another goes out the window entirely, and this person you once called friend now actively works against you.

Spirits, whatever their 'category' for our community, are not immune to this behavior. We may not exactly comprehend their motives, nor particularly understand where they're coming from as their viewpoint is so distant from ours in so many cases. But this just means that, in any relationship we form with them, we work with caution, and make sure to peaceably break an arrangement if we find it is no longer suitable to our personal needs--or prepare to fight (in this case, banish/ward/shield/etc. or even engage in magical warfare with) said entity. Will it happen often that you have to have all-out war with a being like a demon or a god? Probably not! They have better things to do. But if you antagonize them? If you hand over all your power to them and expect them to do the work for you? If you ask them to have ONLY your best interests at heart, and not their own wants/needs/desires?

It's going to end badly for you, just as if you yank a cat's tail.
Ok i got your point.
First, spirit is the living energy without body and we are the living energy with body.
From my point of view, the only basic difference it is.
So what works for us as the spirit, works for the spirit itself too speaking in psychological terms.

Then, the demons are various.
Lesser ones are more close with the spiritual advancement to human than the higher ones who are high above the both.
Lesser ones tend to do more negative stuff from the lower vibration of emotion than higher ones.
Their magical power could be the similar, so they both would successfuly influence us on that way based at what they want, but their spiritual development level is different, the lesser ones are at the lower level of consciousness, the higher at the high.
At that high spiritual development level, the higher demon knows that the retaliation won't give them what they (and all of us) tend to as the final goal: tranquility.
They know, if they hurt the practitioner for disrespecting them, that this practitioner will fall with vibration even more, so not only turn against them back in some cases (what would cause the struggle for both), than the goal of their work would be missed - that practitioner will stop the connection process with that demon, lost their belief in the successful manifestation, maybe even give up from their path, and the demon will do contradictive thing with such hatred action: they will put their intention and chance to help to that practitioner to the grave, after they actually accepted to help to them.
Higher demon knows very well that they really want to help to somebody, once the agreement during the ritual with practitioner is done.

Here we have to differ the intentions demon has toward us when working with us.
Like i already said, the demon who agreed to help and guide us, can "shake" us with some negative action toward us (negative at the very surface and shallow level of understanding) but the goal of that would be to help, not to destroy, and wise practitioner will see so with time and grate them for that.
On the other side, when demon comes to us with intention to hurt us, they surely won't tend to make an help agreement with us before, because - if an entity is higher demon - in my opinion can't happen as they are at too high spiritual awareness level.

Also, at the end of the story, why would higher demon even want to hurt us with intention to destroy?
Are we such a big threat to them?
How can we harm them when we are so beneath them and "small" in the comparison with them?
Such higher demon would be pretty insecure in themselves after all, by punishing us for our small signs of spiritual unawareness like that.
Of course, some parental punish would be ok, but then their intention wouldn't be to destroy but help! :idea:
HansPuchsbaum wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:53 pm
Kharybdis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:57 pm

Even human best friends hurt one another sometimes, because everyone ultimately pursues their own needs and interests, and sometimes that runs counter to what someone else needs or desires.
No. Just no. Real friends never, ever, ever hurt one another. The very definition of friendship in my book is that you are willing to put someone else's interests, needs, and desires above your own. Otherwise, you're just acquaintances.

One might think to have lots of friends, but let's take an extreme example. For how many of those would you be willing to step in front of a bullet. The list gets shorter very quickly.
I agree with plenty of your opinions, thumb up for these, but not with this one.

People aren't at the highest vibration of the emotion all the time to keep the peace in relationships 24/7 and even if their beloved one is coming to them from their lowest and projects their negativity at them like that.
We tend to fall with vibration, even if we love somebody really much, because there would most likely appear some issue between us from time to time, which will decrease our mood.

Nobody is the exact copy of the other one, and paths differ too, expectations and mindsets too...
All this could cause the mess, negativity, arguments...

But what differs the real friends from the more shallow relationships, is the higher level of trust - number one! - and then the bigger amount of similarities such as interests, general path, moral values...
Tho nothing is ideal and pure so even here the small differences could lead to untrust/relationship "shaking" at least for some short time.
Embrace the moment, seek to know, follow the flow, live your passion and do it all with spirit.
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Aprophis
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Nemesis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:49 pm
From my point of view, dangerous means evil.
Like i said, a demon can shake us and show us no mercy - spoken in human terms - so, like that, to be considered as dangerous, while they are really just helpful by giving us a very harsh lesson in order to support our will to grow.
But real danger is what we call evil.
So avalanches, tsunamis, hurricanes, lions, venomous snakes, etc are all evil because they're dangerous?
No, that's not how it works
HansPuchsbaum wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:26 pm
Nope. Nothing edgy about it. Let's say you wanted to achieve something, I mean really wanted ie "I'll get to my goal, or I'll die trying". Do you care about the danger? No. Do you care what and where the danger comes from? No. You're focused on your goal and any thoughts about the danger would disturb your focus.
You still should care about it and take any measures possible. Otherwise it's just reckless.
What you are talking about is like defusing a bomb by hitting random buttons. You don't care about the danger, you don't care where it comes from, you'll just get to defuse the bomb and die trying.
You'll probably die trying.
Nemesis wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
Also, at the end of the story, why would higher demon even want to hurt us with intention to destroy?
Are we such a big threat to them?
How can we harm them when we are so beneath them and "small" in the comparison with them?
Such higher demon would be pretty insecure in themselves after all, by punishing us for our small signs of spiritual unawareness like that.
Of course, some parental punish would be ok, but then their intention wouldn't be to destroy but help! :idea:
We can be a threat to them, yes. I'll just say the word blasting rods. They are not happy about those because they can hurt them, real bad.
Higher demons don't need to be insecure to get angry or anything. They are in tune with their emotions. They have accepted the good and the bad inside them, because those emotions are still a part of them.
Sure they might have control over them, but that doesn't mean they will never let them out. The universe is still a balance of light and dark.

Also in all this discussion you are forgetting that they might look at the bigger picture and not just at your current incarnation. If they deem your current incarnation has to suffer so you can be stronger in the next one, they might go and fuck up your life. And your next life might be better but you will only have a bad time in this one.
And who's to say they don't hold a grudge against you on a soul level, this could be a possibility too. Maybe you did something in your past life that really angered them and they're not someone to just forget.
Even then they still have a right to not give a fuck about you and do whatever they want to do, free will and all that.
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Aprophis
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Nemesis wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:18 pm
Even the evil one wants the peace and joy when making evil act...
But here is the main trick - they don't get it.
They don't get the peace and joy, because they don't get what they want from the victim.
They might seem they got it...
The crusader who converts the pagan with the life threat to their faith, can get their "yes" but not a trust and not a soul.
Evil is a human construct based on our morals. There is no real evil in the universe, only action and consequence.
And who are you to say a supposedly evil being doesn't get their joy? Have you been said evil being? Did you not get your joy?
How do you know what they feel and think if you have not been them. This is a really big assumption.

The morals of demons are really different than ours. There are demon races that fight, kill, rape their own and it's totally normal in their society. Why do you think they would ever treat you any better if they treat their own that way?
You think based on terms of human morals and ethics that they would treat you within those parameters.
But they are not human, they are demons. They don't work within our laws, our justice, our morals, they are beyond that.
In this case you are projecting your human expectations on how they would react and how their minds and hearts work onto them.
Again, they are not human. Their standards are not human. Their morals are not human. Emphasis on NOT HUMAN.
Two Roads diverged in a yellow Wood and I took both, for I am Quantum.
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Aksho Kharneth Akhash
Aksho Slaaneth K'Khaa
Aksho Tzeeneth Phaos
Aksho Nurgleth Dh'Akh

Sanity is for the weak
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