Never summon what you cannot banish? Opinions/ideas?

[Kristen]

Hi all,

I've been doing yet more reading lately and came across an interesting statement from someone who has experience with the Goetic demons; that being, never summon what you cannot banish.

This is interesting to me as I have actually called upon a couple of entities but so far, so good.

Curiously, VK Jehannum doesn't agree with banishing as he states the demons know when to go and will leave when they darn well want, LOL. You just thank them for their presence, etc and leave it at that.

I know VK is an experienced occultist so wonder if he is glossing over some finer points? By that I mean, he already knows how to banish, ground, etc and has excellent astral and psychic senses.

Would it be a case of, if you summon someone/something that you are not ready for, if you are feeling threatened, uneasy, etc, better to say goodbye and do a banishing in case?

Thanks for your ideas/advice

[Heretique]

I think the point of that statement is valid, that you need to understand how to protect yourself, true it isn't often needed but you still need to know how to do it anyway. I think in a way it adds to your confidence when working with these beings. Certainly still treat them with respect and there are more "respectful" ways to banish. As you become more experienced then yes you will probably connect with something that is difficult to deal with, but you should still know the basics anyway, and at least be aware enough of the beings you are dealing with to know how to best handle the situation. also making the choice to deal with them even if you can't and facing the effects of that as well- and sometimes not just how it affects you but others close to you as well.

[Nemesis]

Interesting subject!

In my opinion yes. Never summon that.
Simply because you believe that you cannot banish it if there would be the need.
Belief is the starting point in magic work.
What you believe in, you put your energy and focus into, so you attract.

So for those who see spirits as potentially dangerous entities from one reason or another - the best advice is to act according to that statement and constantly upgrade spiritual defense abilities in order to be able to work with more entities and still feel safe.

[satansaspie]

If you summon something other then the goetica demon/s and something feel/s not right = (NB: Not all negative feelings indicate something dangerous' it could be that' your energy is not high in vibration' too withstand an' higher electric current upon your' own current at that given time.

You' can always call upon Satan: I always call him if I've summoned/or invited a negative demon by accident and he'll show it the door per-se. My advice build a relationship with Lord Satan first.!!

Hail Satan.

[Noctua]

Working with demons is not an easy practice, it is a dangerous practice, and there is never any moment you should believe you're out of danger. However, the same does apply to the spiritual realm or anything of an 'unseen' nature; if you don't have control over your ritual space whether by personal means or with aid, then you're quite simply fucked. You've stepped into an unpredictable situation and either you come out of it okay, or you don't.
I'd personally advise that if you're calling upon a demon or spirit or … you will have already gone into this with a clear-cut plan of what you want to happen, and coming from a wisened position to do so. Some practitioners may like to allow the presence to remain until they are ready to leave, but this shouldn't mean the practitioner surrenders complete control to the entity. It is a matter of a task being put into motion, and that motion going until the task is complete. If you are already experienced enough to call upon a demon, you would be able to understand what is happening and whether or not you're moving into a problem scenario with said demon or not. If a genuine problem occurs then you need to be able to end the session as quickly as you were able to commence it. It was you who started it, and it is you who finishes it. If you desire a communion where it is completely up to the demon (or other entity) then you're taking a risk and you should know that.

I don't think anyone should be working with demons until they are ready to accept the worst case scenario. Accepting that, holding that element of sacred fear is a mark of respect. The moment you do away with it entirely it is an underestimation of that entity's power. In my experience, the demon will respect you more when you are both capable of and willing to banish if/when need be. It doesn't mean you are dictating 'them', it means you hold discipline over your magical operation. There is a mindful balance to be reached here.

As to the suggestion that you can call on 'Lord Satan' to help should you be in trouble. No, it doesn't work that way. Don't rely on that unless you have an extensive pact with the Satan in question (because 'satan' is a title, so also be aware of who you are really making that agreement with). You may get a fatherly feel from the satan or any other lordship you work with, but it doesn't mean they are obligated to meet that ideal for you. If you are reverent to them and they truly look fondly upon you for some reason or another, it means they would hold you to personal responsibility or cleaning up your own damn mess. I know there are followings that look upon 'Satan' as the 'dark' version of a protector to pray to. That isn't my belief. If it's yours, good luck.

This veers off the main topic but I think it needs to be stated. There seems to be a misconception with some, that stems of split thinking, which is that if you can effectively and positively work with demons or demonic lords that it must mean they are actually 'good' and have simply been 'villainized' by whatever Abrahamic belief system. To buy into that is missing the point entirely, it's just shoving off responsibility from a 'light' religion onto a 'dark' religion without any change to the framework.
Demons are not love and light for you, no matter how well you are acquainted with them or how much mutual respect has been built. Ideally, you didn't choose this path because it was secure, but rather because it is genuine, it resonates and will help you to grow.

[Nemesis]

Working with demons is not an easy practice, it is a dangerous practice, and there is never any moment you should believe you're out of danger.

I know few guys, advanced occult/demonolatry practitioners, who never believed that demons could be dangerous if one treats them with respect.
These guys have said that they never casted ritual circle from the spiritual defense reason, neither even learnt spiritual defense techniques.

I am aware it sounds pretty unfamiliar to you (you don't resonate with it) as it sounded the same to me at the beginning.
But then i rethought this matter.
Learned more about the power of the one's belief.
About the stuff like raising cars with bare hands to save someone's life, mirracoulus recoveries and healings, successful manifestations of literary "impossible" stuff, everything created from the simple belief!
From the belief so strong it could move the mountains...

That's how i built my trust toward such "irresponsible" practitioners.

Tho, there is always a chance that they were just lucky, or else they even never summoned a demon really, but both are minor, so i kept the conclusion mentioned above as my truth.

And of course i am presenting this as just an idea, as my truth doesn't need to work for the other, and it should be considered as just one among many different truths.
Or beliefs.

[HansPuchsbaum]

Well in my case I jumped headfirst into the deep end of the pool. Never bothered to learn anything about defense.

But than again I never cared what might have happened to me.

That said I still firmly belive demon choose me and not the other way around.

As for the part about respect. Lets just say he managed to uppset me so much, I sweared and cursed and called him all sorts of names, the real juicy stuff. To which he only laughed and through the laughter I could hear some thing along the lines of... Wasn't expecting anything less.

[Noctua]

I know few guys, advanced occult/demonolatry practitioners, who never believed that demons could be dangerous if one treats them with respect.
These guys have said that they never casted ritual circle from the spiritual defense reason, neither even learnt spiritual defense techniques.

I am aware it sounds pretty unfamiliar to you (you don't resonate with it) as it sounded the same to me at the beginning.

You are mistaken, as this is quite familiar to me. I've seen it all and I have approached from many angles. I've concluded it is fluffy new-age bullshit devoid of real awareness if there is only 'I totally respect and trust demons and so they will never hurt me' without critical consideration. My idea of working with forces of this nature is business-oriented; it includes negotiation, pact-making and realistic regard for the particular nature of the entity called upon. More intimate bonds may be formed, but it is not so general as expecting to walk in with a certain attitude and walk out unscathed.

Without a balanced perspective you head straight into delusional territory and at that point, it doesn't matter what is functional or true because you're in a reality unique to self.
I won't judge someone on a personal level if they want to approach things this way, but I will continue to disagree with it. If you find it practical then more power to you, of course. Everyone has their own path to walk, their own mistakes to make, their own lessons to take from that.

While there are individual truths, I think that there is also an objective truth, and none of us will ever be privy to operating harmoniously on that level. We can only get 'close'.
Magically speaking -- if what you do works as intended, then it is right. If it isn't working, you're doing it wrong. Things are simpler (though more involved) than they maybe seem.

[Nemesis]

Agreed about the part about different magicians with different work experiences (the last part of your post).
But if this is so... correct me if i got you wrong... then again the approach of opening spiritual portals and working with demons without any cautios, becomes the right.
The right at least for that magician who can work like that from one reason or another, of course.
So objective truth can exist, it does exist that's what i believe too, but maybe not in the "demons could always be dangerous" shape.

Now this subject opens a very deep and interesting subject, the idea of demons as the entities who adjust themselves in their way of working with us, based at how we perceive them.
Tho, it goes in different topic i guess so.

[Kharybdis]

I think it's just generally good practice to be able to defend yourself from anything you may interact with "across the veil," so to speak. To do otherwise would simply be folly.

Do the entities we work with wish us harm and intend to wreck us? Maybe, maybe not. CAN they do us harm if they so choose?

YES. They absolutely can. I work intensively with Lilith right now, for example. She has stepped forward to assist me in becoming as good as I can possibly be in many ways--but I know that she will absolutely kick my ass if I'm in any way disrespectful of her or the work we are doing together. I always keep this in mind in our workings; she is motherly, and she has been kind to me, but I'm well aware that there are lines not to be crossed, and she is not above teaching me some harsh lessons if I decide to do so.

Do I fear her? Yes, in a way, I do--but this does not mean I love or respect her any less. This also informs my practice of being prepared. I don't enjoy the thought of having to "fight" her, but can I? Yes. This is integral to my working with her, in fact. We share power. As Noc noted above, giving full rein to any entity is asking for trouble, no matter how well-intentioned these entities may seem to be. Several of them, especially the dark divinities, are not above absolutely wrecking your shit if you refuse to stand in your own power. That's part of the appeal of the path we walk, IMHO.