Satan and Suns

Right, these could be the reasons, but let's consider one more:
Demons are the entities at the very high level of spiritual development and it's proven by their power and deep knowledge about the each one of us even before the work starts, and also knowledge about how the universe functions in all its aspects.

For becoming so aware you firstly have to be enough self aware, balanced and stabile, what leads to further conclusion that you also have to emotionally vibrate high.
At least generaly.

There is a long scale of the emotional vibration levels, starting with the lowest such as shame and apathy at the bottom, and ending with peace, love and enlightenment at the very top.
One who lives at the bottom half of that scale lives like that because the lack of the power and effort to deal with their own beliefs, thoughts and emotions.
Such being very often isn't even self aware enough and they still have some shadow work to do to find out what causes the blockades in them what lead to the life in the depression, apathy, anger, greed or hatred.
Such being also tends a lot to project their negativity at the others to get rid of the "balast" which keeps them low.
There from all negativity and hatred derive, and also the lack of clear understanding of another being and maybe even the lack of the true spiritual power.

So if the demons would be really as dangerous as some of the practitioners claim, at least the higher ones (as the lesser ones maybe even could be but i haven't experience with working with those so still cannot form an attitude), they wouldn't be able to dive inside the deepest depth of our soul so successfuly nor have the power to guide us successfuly in a direction we want to go.

At least that's the way how i perceive these things.

Cult wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:10 am

2. They're just too lazy to actually learn proper evocation and protection methods.

Demons aren't set out to ruin your life at any cost, but they're not particularly invested in your well being or your 'growth' either. If you could wish their danger away, the Solomonic methods wouldn't exist.

Although my experience is nowhere near any of yours, I never felt any need to learn evocation methods, as I can interact with my companion sufficiently without them.

As for what Nemesis was writing about her experiences, I must concur at least for the large part. In my experience, it's not that he does what I want him to do, but more like guiding me on the right path, towards the goal I want to achieve, but also making fun of me at times.

Nemesis wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:01 pm

At least that's the way how i perceive these things.

And you're entitled to your perception, but...

There are several issues with your argument.
It appears as though you're saying the aspect of 'danger' makes a being inherently unevolved. It seems to me you don't comprehend *what* or *where* the danger comes from when interacting with demons or darker divinities, and further --that you think there is a process for them similar to ours to become as powerful or 'highly vibrating' as they are (however you may determine what that means for an entity).

Level of power and wisdom does not equate to safety. A powerful, intelligent, far-reaching being can absolutely be dangerous and frequently enacts their capacity to be dangerous for several reasons depending on the circumstance. That 'danger', in my experience, is not an inherently 'negative' thing no matter how we may translate or process it from our limited position --it can be absolutely innate, circumstantially pure, necessary, and at times directly helpful to our growth (dangers are something we may often be prone to avoid, we may find danger in things that are important for us to experience, etc. If you believe something can only be helpful if it has no potential to harm you, then you're probably going to be missing something essential to your evolution somewhere along the way).

A 'higher'-being does not go through the same work we go through to develop their power or maintain it, they don't have reason to abide the human concepts (of morality for instance) that we do or to seek out some pinnacle of being (this 'self awareness, balance, stability' you referred to) in order to hold a greater power; they are of an entirely unique make-up and they can see into ours with wisdom even while carrying a force that could harm us. Overall they came into existence on a level that we have not, with certain vision and ability accessible to them from that conception. I do not personally believe they had to come into a conception of inherent 'love, peace, harmonious vibration' to carry the power they do. I'd be interested to know why you think this is the case for demons, if I'm reading you correctly.
At best, you may expect complete neutrality from them, but even in that neutrality --energies and intentions can become lost in translation or filtered/unfiltered in such a way that they bring about a destructive experience based on the dark power they wield.

Your argument seems to be about highly evolved beings not holding the same apathy or malice that we are capable of, not having the same duality we are capable of because they are 'beyond that', and I personally find this to be a lofty conclusion to have come to --not only because I believe they *can* be capable of these expressions (though from a divine stance and awareness transcending our own scope), but because you are seemingly deducing that those 'negative' attributes are the primary reason a being of this nature would possibly be dangerous to interact with.

Nemesis wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:01 pm

Right, these could be the reasons, but let's consider one more:
Demons are the entities at the very high level of spiritual development and it's proven by their power and deep knowledge about the each one of us even before the work starts, and also knowledge about how the universe functions in all its aspects.

For becoming so aware you firstly have to be enough self aware, balanced and stabile, what leads to further conclusion that you also have to emotionally vibrate high.
At least generaly.

To accept that conclusion, we have to accept that a) demons have a spiritual model of evolution comparable to humans and thus need to be balanced, stable, and self aware in order to have the power they do, b) spiritual development is dependent on psychological processes and thus psychological development leads to spiritual development, c) being self aware, balanced and stable, somehow in some way would make a demon invested in a human's personal well-being, d) every bit of historical text we have on demons is completely wrong and we're the groundbreaking enlightened newcomers who discovered how truly misunderstood they are, despite that we're accepting the gnosis of the historical texts when it comes to the names, powers, and seals of the demons.

I'll contest you on all of those things, because the first is humanizing demons, the second would mean Rhonda Byrne is the most powerful witch in the universe, the third is baseless, and the fourth is hypocritical.

There is a long scale of the emotional vibration levels, starting with the lowest such as shame and apathy at the bottom, and ending with peace, love and enlightenment at the very top.
One who lives at the bottom half of that scale lives like that because the lack of the power and effort to deal with their own beliefs, thoughts and emotions.

Your implication here is that evolution is dependent on happiness, so emotions that cause pain are inferior to emotions that cause joy. I'll disagree with you here too, because I don't believe happiness is the ultimate purpose of life, nor do I see how magic and spirit work is dependent on how content you are. That has never been the case until the New Age movement said it is, and magic worked long before the New Age movement came along to reform it. The New Age movement is nothing but bastardized Eastern beliefs diluted into an ultra-positive, digestible form; it's empty and it has nothing I can use. Magic has always been about getting what you want, and it works regardless of how yogi-like you are.

Such being very often isn't even self aware enough and they still have some shadow work to do to find out what causes the blockades in them what lead to the life in the depression, apathy, anger, greed or hatred.
Such being also tends a lot to project their negativity at the others to get rid of the "balast" which keeps them low.
There from all negativity and hatred derive, and also the lack of clear understanding of another being and maybe even the lack of the true spiritual power.

Shadow work is a fancy Jungian term for 'basic psychology' and I don't see how that has anything to do with magic and spirit work. It's obviously necessary to know yourself so you can avoid delusion and do what you do better, but it's not what makes or breaks your power.

Noctua wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:03 pm

Nemesis wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:01 pm

At least that's the way how i perceive these things.

And you're entitled to your perception, but...

There are several issues with your argument.
It appears as though you're saying the aspect of 'danger' makes a being inherently unevolved. It seems to me you don't comprehend *what* or *where* the danger comes from when interacting with demons or darker divinities, and further --that you think there is a process for them similar to ours to become as powerful or 'highly vibrating' as they are (however you may determine what that means for an entity).

If I'm allowed to add my 5 cents. Some of us just don't care about danger. So we don't care *what* and *where* danger comes from

HansPuchsbaum wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:51 pm

If I'm allowed to add my 5 cents. Some of us just don't care about danger. So we don't care *what* and *where* danger comes from

Yes, thank you for reminding me of the edgelord community. I wouldn't want to ostracize them from the mix.

Noctua wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:03 pm

There are several issues with your argument.
It appears as though you're saying the aspect of 'danger' makes a being inherently unevolved. It seems to me you don't comprehend *what* or *where* the danger comes from when interacting with demons or darker divinities, and further --that you think there is a process for them similar to ours to become as powerful or 'highly vibrating' as they are (however you may determine what that means for an entity).

Level of power and wisdom does not equate to safety. A powerful, intelligent, far-reaching being can absolutely be dangerous and frequently enacts their capacity to be dangerous for several reasons depending on the circumstance. That 'danger', in my experience, is not an inherently 'negative' thing no matter how we may translate or process it from our limited position --it can be absolutely innate, circumstantially pure, necessary, and at times directly helpful to our growth (dangers are something we may often be prone to avoid, we may find danger in things that are important for us to experience, etc. If you believe something can only be helpful if it has no potential to harm you, then you're probably going to be missing something essential to your evolution somewhere along the way).

A 'higher'-being does not go through the same work we go through to develop their power or maintain it, they don't have reason to abide the human concepts (of morality for instance) that we do or to seek out some pinnacle of being (this 'self awareness, balance, stability' you referred to) in order to hold a greater power; they are of an entirely unique make-up and they can see into ours with wisdom even while carrying a force that could harm us. Overall they came into existence on a level that we have not, with certain vision and ability accessible to them from that conception. I do not personally believe they had to come into a conception of inherent 'love, peace, harmonious vibration' to carry the power they do. I'd be interested to know why you think this is the case for demons, if I'm reading you correctly.
At best, you may expect complete neutrality from them, but even in that neutrality --energies and intentions can become lost in translation or filtered/unfiltered in such a way that they bring about a destructive experience based on the dark power they wield.

Your argument seems to be about highly evolved beings not holding the same apathy or malice that we are capable of, not having the same duality we are capable of because they are 'beyond that', and I personally find this to be a lofty conclusion to have come to --not only because I believe they *can* be capable of these expressions (though from a divine stance and awareness transcending our own scope), but because you are seemingly deducing that those 'negative' attributes are the primary reason a being of this nature would possibly be dangerous to interact with. [/color]

There are two things to consider in here:
1. What's your definition of the demonic spirit?
If i understood well, you might define them as created with such high level of spiritual development and power already?
So they have passed no process of self transformation (like humans) in order to become so high?
If this is the objective, true definition of a demon... then i have to think about it some time, so i will, but the first intuitive conclusion what comes to my mind is following, and also connected with that second thing to consider mentioned above -

From my point of view, dangerous means evil.
Like i said, a demon can shake us and show us no mercy - spoken in human terms - so, like that, to be considered as dangerous, while they are really just helpful by giving us a very harsh lesson in order to support our will to grow.
But real danger is what we call evil.
It's all about the goal, an intention which someone has with us: if someone's goal is to help then that being isn't dangerous because the harm isn't what they want to do, and reverse, if the goal is to harm, to destroy, a being can be considered as dangerous.

And now, why i think that higher demons cannot be dangerous, or better said - don't want to be dangerous...
That leads to the second consideration mentioned above, and also is the answer at your question.
So, my opinion is that dangerous (or evil) is at the low emotional vibration.
At the point of the rage and hatred, also fear (which plays the vital role for feeding the both), the being lives in the struggle.
Struggle opposes the inner peace.
When we are dangerous, want to harm, we feel anger toward the victim based at the fear from losing something: our dignity, beloved one, respect, property, power, whatever...
At such mindset we aren't really spiritualy mature.
Because the fear from losing something means that we still haven't realized that nothing could really be lost!
Death is just a transformation, so our beloved one didn't dissapear; and if somebody tries to humiliate or hurt us, they actually don't do it to us than to themselves, because if self aware enough, our attitude about ourselves cannot be shaken by simple insult, punch, disrespect or humiliation act.
For example, someone can tell you in front of the public:
"You unworthy piece of ***t, you are the mistake from (counting reasons they see in you)"
But if you really know yourself and stand behind your actions and attitude, if you are in the balance with yourself so emotionaly stabile, you won't feel hurted not disrespected, and the worst thing you will do would be laughing and leaving the one who disrespected you to think what they want.
So no war, no vengeance, simply - no rage.

And, as the final conclusion, repeating once more from the upper post...
I really deeply believe, just as you do, that higher demons are perfectly self aware and emotionally balanced, so rage doesn't overwhelm their emotions at all.
You need to be insecure at yourself to be furious and the demons are surely not that.
At least that, higher ones.

I would like to read your opinion about what i have said now, and gladly awaiting it, as this discussion is really interesting and dives deep into the "twilight zone", the zone which human beings don't know very well and still explore - understanding the demons.

Cult wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:22 pm

To accept that conclusion, we have to accept that a) demons have a spiritual model of evolution comparable to humans and thus need to be balanced, stable, and self aware in order to have the power they do, b) spiritual development is dependent on psychological processes and thus psychological development leads to spiritual development, c) being self aware, balanced and stable, somehow in some way would make a demon invested in a human's personal well-being, d) every bit of historical text we have on demons is completely wrong and we're the groundbreaking enlightened newcomers who discovered how truly misunderstood they are, despite that we're accepting the gnosis of the historical texts when it comes to the names, powers, and seals of the demons.

I'll contest you on all of those things, because the first is humanizing demons, the second would mean Rhonda Byrne is the most powerful witch in the universe, the third is baseless, and the fourth is hypocritical.

There is a long scale of the emotional vibration levels, starting with the lowest such as shame and apathy at the bottom, and ending with peace, love and enlightenment at the very top.
One who lives at the bottom half of that scale lives like that because the lack of the power and effort to deal with their own beliefs, thoughts and emotions.

Your implication here is that evolution is dependent on happiness, so emotions that cause pain are inferior to emotions that cause joy. I'll disagree with you here too, because I don't believe happiness is the ultimate purpose of life, nor do I see how magic and spirit work is dependent on how content you are. That has never been the case until the New Age movement said it is, and magic worked long before the New Age movement came along to reform it. The New Age movement is nothing but bastardized Eastern beliefs diluted into an ultra-positive, digestible form; it's empty and it has nothing I can use. Magic has always been about getting what you want, and it works regardless of how yogi-like you are.

Such being very often isn't even self aware enough and they still have some shadow work to do to find out what causes the blockades in them what lead to the life in the depression, apathy, anger, greed or hatred.
Such being also tends a lot to project their negativity at the others to get rid of the "balast" which keeps them low.
There from all negativity and hatred derive, and also the lack of clear understanding of another being and maybe even the lack of the true spiritual power.

Shadow work is a fancy Jungian term for 'basic psychology' and I don't see how that has anything to do with magic and spirit work. It's obviously necessary to know yourself so you can avoid delusion and do what you do better, but it's not what makes or breaks your power.

Well for the first part of your post i gave the explanation by reffering to Noctua's post, so i would like you to read this (upper one right beyond this) and i am sorry for not reffering to you too in that one so the thing goes more smoothly.

And for the rest...
In my opinion, there are no inferior or superior. In the universe everything is same worthy, because construction and destruction keeps the balance.
And literary everything is created with a reason.
For example, evil is here to teach us how to dive into the depth and find the inner peace by releasing the parts of us which don't serve us and transform the negative ones to positive that can serve us.
Evil is the way of expressing the pain in us, it's the sign of inner struggle, the call for help.

And the ultimate, final goal of everything anyone does is - peace and joy.
Whatever we want, we desire, we greed for...
When we want a new car, a new connection with spirit, new soulmate, good food...
We actually don't want these, than the peace and joy which emanates from these!

Even the evil one wants the peace and joy when making evil act...
But here is the main trick - they don't get it.
They don't get the peace and joy, because they don't get what they want from the victim.
They might seem they got it...
The crusader who converts the pagan with the life threat to their faith, can get their "yes" but not a trust and not a soul.

And if the higher demons would be evil, dangerous etc... They surely wouldn't be able to get what they want too, not deeper than at the very surface.
So there wouldn't be the final goal of every wish for them - the peace and joy.

Also, based at that said here...
When the higher demon decided to help us, to guide us, they haven't crossed fingers in their pocket at the same time.
Surely not.
Because if so, they would end such destructive relationship with us only in pain and struggle, not the peace so joy.
With such kind of "help" we wouldn't evolve, and they wouldn't keep the peace they are tending to keep - as the higher spiritual level entities - with the full awareness and consciousness.

Can't edit the last post anymore, Cult, so will add here:

Right, the magic you can do at any level of emotional vibration scale with the same success, everything depends of the belief.
So that's why curses could be successful, just as healing magic.

But why the curse shouldn't be what one seeks for...
Because of the consequence.
Because of the everlasting struggle with the targeted being.
The low vibration emanates from that.
Not the high, not the inner peace and peace, and then - not the real joy too.

You just repeated what you said previously in a more extensive way. I've already addressed those things.

One more time:

1. Inner peace and joy is not necessarily the ultimate, objective goal.
2. Human psychology doesn't apply to demons because they are not human.
3. Psychological development is not what makes or breaks spiritual development.
4. Results aren't dependent on belief.