Throwing In The Towel On Koetting.

[User3246]

To preface this, I just want to say that these are my own comments and observations, and I do not have any real proof, well, except that Koetting admits a lot of it himself. No one likes to admit they wasted $500 on a Black Magick course, and got taken for a fool. As I have progressed through the lessons, I came to the realization that Koetting has a GIGANTIC drug habit. He appeared on camera in his videos several times obviously high on something. It was sad. He has a good voice, seems strongly psychic, and works hard. I kept wondering when we were going to get into the meat of the subject. I am five chapters in, and we are still on general information on candle magick. Yah. Kinda fluffy and lacking in solid stuff for a self-avowed Satanist! Today I got an email from him bragging about using Belial to get off drug and illegal guns possession charges! Now, Lord Belial may be a bit of a bad boy himself, but he is NOT gonna allow anyone on drugs to get information from him, or get out of a situation that they created themselves, and have not learned anything from. Unless Koetting uses the old school methods which trap and force a demon to do their will, that is. Koetting's organization has been pelting me with ads pretty regularly for expensively priced books and other items. I cannot in good conscience continue, knowing this stuff is supporting an out of control drug habit. So, I have to say that it was a failed experiment, overall! I will still keep it as an example of what could happen to anyone who is not careful, and I will finish the course, to see if there is any knowledge I can glean from it, in my spare time. I suspect I will not be any wiser than I am right now. Meh!

[Nefer]

To be honest SH I watched him summon King Bael. I thought he was speaking a little rude, demanding actually. I said this is not right. He was asking King Bael questions in an impertinent manner . Almost like a summoning from the Goetia. It turned me off. I never watched him or reading anything on him again.

That was me observation on E.Knoetting.

[Heidi]

Just my opinion here, but I don't see how Koetting's drug habit means anyone who bought his courses got taken for a fool. One needs not be perfect to be a good magician; in fact most good magicians have more room to keep behaving like fools in certain areas of their lives exactly because they can keep patching up things with magic, where for another person the whole thing would collapse much sooner and they'll be forced to address it.

I'm not a fan of Koetting, and many of his newsletters and announcements this past year have been in the wtf twilight zone, but having read most of his books and having talked with him via email in the past, I believe he is a good magician and very knowledgeable in many areas, despite all the hype and ridiculous advertising and self-promoting practices he uses. And you can believe what you want about Belial, but ultimately it's Belial's choice who he helps and how, and Koetting did get out of the drug and illegal gun possession charges, so he's not lying about that one. I don't see why Belial -or many other spirits, for that matter- wouldn't help someone get out of that. It's not like he's the only person who ever used magic to get out of a mess they were completely responsible for, and at least in my experience, most spirits are very ethically neutral; they will give you what you ask in the way they understand it, and whether that's a blessing or enough rope to hang yourself with only time will tell (and a blessing can turn out to be a curse in the long run, and the rope to hang yourself with may be the wakeup call you needed to grow; it's not like life works linearly anyway).

Just my thoughts.

[User3246]

To be honest SH I watched him summon King Bael. I thought he was speaking a little rude, demanding actually. I said this is not right. He was asking King Bael questions in an impertinent manner . Almost like a summoning from the Goetia. It turned me off. I never watched him or reading anything on him again.

That was me observation on E.Knoetting.

I wish I has listened a little bit closer when you said that Nefer.

Just my opinion here, but I don't see how Koetting's drug habit means anyone who bought his courses got taken for a fool. One needs not be perfect to be a good magician; in fact most good magicians have more room to keep behaving like fools in certain areas of their lives exactly because they can keep patching up things with magic, where for another person the whole thing would collapse much sooner and they'll be forced to address it.

I'm not a fan of Koetting, and many of his newsletters and announcements this past year have been in the wtf twilight zone, but having read most of his books and having talked with him via email in the past, I believe he is a good magician and very knowledgeable in many areas, despite all the hype and ridiculous advertising and self-promoting practices he uses. And you can believe what you want about Belial, but ultimately it's Belial's choice who he helps and how, and Koetting did get out of the drug and illegal gun possession charges, so he's not lying about that one. I don't see why Belial -or many other spirits, for that matter- wouldn't help someone get out of that. It's not like he's the only person who ever used magic to get out of a mess they were completely responsible for, and at least in my experience, most spirits are very ethically neutral; they will give you what you ask in the way they understand it, and whether that's a blessing or enough rope to hang yourself with only time will tell (and a blessing can turn out to be a curse in the long run, and the rope to hang yourself with may be the wakeup call you needed to grow; it's not like life works linearly anyway).

Just my thoughts.

Well, Heidi, I understand that people make mistakes, and that they can and do heal from things like drug problems. I have not researched Koetting overmuch, nor have I read all of his books. I only note that he would be a much BETTER magician without the drugs and hype. Yes, that is my opinion. He can and will do what he wants, of course. My demon companions would NOT get me out of a situation where I asked for it, went against advice, or broke the law with no plan to stop when the situation was obviously hurting me. They are not my personal 'get out of jail free' card. I think using them that way demeans them. I find it VERY hard to believe a Demon Lord would do it if my demon companions would not. It makes me wonder if Koetting has pacts with Outer or Inner Realm Demon Lords. I guess I HAVE used magick to get me out of messes I have caused, since I cursed the heck out of the ex, but I have no intention of ever going back to a situation like that, and I was in the process of getting MYSELF out of the trouble. Koetting has skills and knowledge, and I will probably finish the course I bought, out of shear curiosity, if nothing else, but I will be very careful, and make sure not to trust his judgement too much. Are the DLs giving him enough rope to hang himself? Maybe.

[Heidi]

Well for me, the issue with Koetting and drugs is that he strongly advocates against drug use when doing magic -he has a whole section about this in one of his books- and then he show up high and not very functional in youtube videos. Which is weird, considering drugs and ritual have been walking hand in hand practically from the time humans started practicing magic. On the other hand there are very highly functional magicians who recommend specific drugs for magical purposes and it's working very well for them (and you never would have guessed they use drugs if they hadn't talked about it). So it's more about the relationship Koetting has with drugs that looks bad rather than the drugs themselves, at least for me.

Now whether he'd be a better magician without the drugs is difficult to tell, especially since -as I said above- has experimented with it and came to the conclusion that drugs didn't help him in ritual so he advocates against that. The hype though has nothing to do with how good a magician he is. That's the image he chooses to present to the world to draw customers in; doesn't have to do with how good he actually is. And as a business image it obviously works pretty well for him. He definitely has a very large following, sells expensive courses and books, and a lot of people go directly to him without even checking any other magic courses first.

About using demons -or any other spirits- as a personal "get out of jail free" card, well isn't this why people practice magic in the first place? To get an extra advantage in life? To be able to influence situations they otherwise cannot influence, get away with things, change people's opinion about them etc? Just a thought here, but maybe your demons won't bail you out because of what or how you asked for different things, or because you are very determined to not get that kind of help from them? Sometimes it'd valuable for us to fall on our faces in order to realize what we need to do differently, but there a vast array of things that are just uncomfortable or simple mistakes and I don't see why one wouldn't just choose the get out of jail free card when it's available. Especially when it comes to laws, just because it's the law doesn't mean it's good for you, or fair, or ethical, or that getting arrested or convicted for something will cause less damage overall than not getting arrested or convicted would cause. There are huge gray areas there, and that's even by human standards, let alone when it comes to bringing a spirit into the mix, that won't have the same ethics or points of view about the same situation.

Just a few thoughts.

[Darth Moronius]

About using demons -or any other spirits- as a personal "get out of jail free" card, well isn't this why people practice magic in the first place? To get an extra advantage in life? To be able to influence situations they otherwise cannot influence, get away with things, change people's opinion about them etc? Just a thought here, but maybe your demons won't bail you out because of what or how you asked for different things, or because you are very determined to not get that kind of help from them? Sometimes it'd valuable for us to fall on our faces in order to realize what we need to do differently, but there a vast array of things that are just uncomfortable or simple mistakes and I don't see why one wouldn't just choose the get out of jail free card when it's available. Especially when it comes to laws, just because it's the law doesn't mean it's good for you, or fair, or ethical, or that getting arrested or convicted for something will cause less damage overall than not getting arrested or convicted would cause. There are huge gray areas there, and that's even by human standards, let alone when it comes to bringing a spirit into the mix, that won't have the same ethics or points of view about the same situation.

good to think of

[User3246]

Well for me, the issue with Koetting and drugs is that he strongly advocates against drug use when doing magic -he has a whole section about this in one of his books- and then he show up high and not very functional in youtube videos. Which is weird, considering drugs and ritual have been walking hand in hand practically from the time humans started practicing magic. On the other hand there are very highly functional magicians who recommend specific drugs for magical purposes and it's working very well for them (and you never would have guessed they use drugs if they hadn't talked about it). So it's more about the relationship Koetting has with drugs that looks bad rather than the drugs themselves, at least for me.

Now whether he'd be a better magician without the drugs is difficult to tell, especially since -as I said above- has experimented with it and came to the conclusion that drugs didn't help him in ritual so he advocates against that. The hype though has nothing to do with how good a magician he is. That's the image he chooses to present to the world to draw customers in; doesn't have to do with how good he actually is. And as a business image it obviously works pretty well for him. He definitely has a very large following, sells expensive courses and books, and a lot of people go directly to him without even checking any other magic courses first.

About using demons -or any other spirits- as a personal "get out of jail free" card, well isn't this why people practice magic in the first place? To get an extra advantage in life? To be able to influence situations they otherwise cannot influence, get away with things, change people's opinion about them etc? Just a thought here, but maybe your demons won't bail you out because of what or how you asked for different things, or because you are very determined to not get that kind of help from them? Sometimes it'd valuable for us to fall on our faces in order to realize what we need to do differently, but there a vast array of things that are just uncomfortable or simple mistakes and I don't see why one wouldn't just choose the get out of jail free card when it's available. Especially when it comes to laws, just because it's the law doesn't mean it's good for you, or fair, or ethical, or that getting arrested or convicted for something will cause less damage overall than not getting arrested or convicted would cause. There are huge gray areas there, and that's even by human standards, let alone when it comes to bringing a spirit into the mix, that won't have the same ethics or points of view about the same situation.

Just a few thoughts.

I pretty much disagree with everything you just wrote. Yes, people have done drugs in conjunction with magick for hundreds of years, but ONLY in limited and specific circumstances, if they are smart. I think that Koetting has gone beyond the 'limited and specific'. He is not doing it as part of ritual...he is doing it to get high. He cannot choose to use it for a ceremony and stop, because he is hooked. While you are high, your judgement is impaired, and your reflexes are down. Adding a gun to that scenario is shear madness! Would YOU want to be in his audience when he sees something that is not there and starts spraying bullets? What happens if a shadow demon really does show up? Do you think he will be more capable of handling the situation himself because of drug use, or less? Would I want to be high while sparring? Bane would KICK MY ASS. As for using demons to make life easier and get extra advantages: NO. I don't use it that way! I am here to learn and practice skills from them, so that I can do it myself! Not to have them do it all for me. Have you READ what Akelta went through? Does that sound easier and like a 'get free things from demons' experience? :p People are here to learn, and the study is hard and challenging, but it is worth it! They LOVE DEMONS. We love their attitudes, we love their advice, we love their magick and their cheek! We can do a lot of it for ourselves, and should. They love us even when we screw up! Now, the legal system here is messed up, no lie, but demons are not here to help us get out of crap we cause when there is no need. Does Koetting NEED guns? He has all this Black Magick and Demon Lords willing to kill for ,supposedly. So why guns? Could it be because a steady diet of drugs makes you paranoid, and impairs your judgement? I'd say yes!

[Heidi]

Ok, first of all, I never said Koetting uses drugs to enhance ritual, I said the exact opposite: I know people who use drugs for ritual and are otherwise very normal and you wouldn't guess they ever use drugs, but Koetting doesn't use drugs for ritual and it looks like he's more on the bad end of the spectrum in terms of how it affects him. I have no idea though how we went from him being arrested for possession of drugs and unregistered gun to him shooting a room of people. As for why he would need a gun, well don't ask me, you live in a country where people consider it their right to possess guns, I don't. But if we're talking about effectiveness against a threat, of course a gun would be more effective than a demon. You can't conjure up a demon out of nowhere to physically attack the guy who just put a gun against your head, can you? If someone wants defend themselves against that kind of threat a gun and not a demon would be the way to go.

As for Akelta and what she went through, as I said, some things can't be acquired the easy way because even if someone hands them to you on a silver platter, if you don't know how to maintain them you'll lose them anyway. If I take a random person and hand them a multi-million dollar company it's unlikely they'll know how to keep it running. That's the stuff that need preparation and work (but I do know people who were handed that kind of thing by spirits, and they did lose it cause they didn't know how to handle it. Again, not all spirits think it's their job to explain that going about it this way in a particular case isn't the best way to go about it). Doesn't mean everything needs that though. Who says Akelta hasn't acquired things easily and miraculously with magic and with the help of her demons? And about the study being hard and challenging yes, it can be, but isn't that study done in order to actually work with demons? How isn't that getting things with the help of demons?

I strongly disagree with the "we should do it all by ourselves" mentality. That's a block in receiving things. I don't make my own bread, I buy it from the bakery. I CAN make it, I KNOW how to make it, but it's much easier to pay the bakery and buy it them. I don't make my own clothes either, or my own shoes. All these and tons more are skills a person can learn for themselves. But is there a reason to do all those by yourself, if it's not something you enjoy and have time for? No! Why would it be any different with spirits? If someone is willing to do something nice for you, why would you refuse to accept it and do it the hard and difficult way instead? You are free to do things your way of course; it just doesn't make sense to me, that's all.

[User3246]

Heidi, I am a reasonable person, and made a decision. Yes, it could be wrong, but I don't think so. I have myself used ayahausca in ritual, and had a great experience. It was not my intent to tell people Koetting is a bad magician or a bad person. I am just stating that I dislike his use of drugs and feel like it would hurt any practice if someone did that. Because I feel this way, I will not seeking him out as a teacher any longer, and I consider him a poor role model for me personally. I do not feel like my demons are here to hand me everything on a gold platter, but do they make things easier and better for me sometimes? Yes. But not always. I feel like whatever I say, you are gonna argue against it. Why are you so dead set on 'proving me wrong'? I am not giving this my energy any more.

[Heidi]

I understand that. My question is why are you so dead set on proving one of us is right or wrong? Should I only reply to posts I agree with? Can't we just have a discussion without it being about being right or wrong, or proving something? Can't we have a discussion where we can both understand each other better in the end, and have something to think about from the other's point of view? Just because I'm not seeing things exactly as you are doesn't mean it's a personal challenge.